186d7f5d3SJohn MarinoFrom: James A. Woods <jaw@eos.arc.nasa.gov> 286d7f5d3SJohn Marino 386d7f5d3SJohn Marino>From vn Fri Dec 2 18:05:27 1988 486d7f5d3SJohn MarinoSubject: Re: Looking for C source for RSA 586d7f5d3SJohn MarinoNewsgroups: sci.crypt 686d7f5d3SJohn Marino 786d7f5d3SJohn Marino# Illegitimi noncarborundum 886d7f5d3SJohn Marino 986d7f5d3SJohn MarinoPatents are a tar pit. 1086d7f5d3SJohn Marino 1186d7f5d3SJohn MarinoA good case can be made that most are just a license to sue, and nothing 1286d7f5d3SJohn Marinois illegal until a patent is upheld in court. 1386d7f5d3SJohn Marino 1486d7f5d3SJohn MarinoFor example, if you receive netnews by means other than 'nntp', 1586d7f5d3SJohn Marinothese very words are being modulated by 'compress', 1686d7f5d3SJohn Marinoa variation on the patented Lempel-Ziv-Welch algorithm. 1786d7f5d3SJohn Marino 1886d7f5d3SJohn MarinoOriginal Ziv-Lempel is patent number 4,464,650, and the more powerful 1986d7f5d3SJohn MarinoLZW method is #4,558,302. Yet despite any similarities between 'compress' 2086d7f5d3SJohn Marinoand LZW (the public-domain 'compress' code was designed and given to the 2186d7f5d3SJohn Marinoworld before the ink on the Welch patent was dry), no attorneys from Sperry 2286d7f5d3SJohn Marino(the assignee) have asked you to unplug your Usenet connection. 2386d7f5d3SJohn Marino 2486d7f5d3SJohn MarinoWhy? I can't speak for them, but it is possible the claims are too broad, 2586d7f5d3SJohn Marinoor, just as bad, not broad enough. ('compress' does things not mentioned 2686d7f5d3SJohn Marinoin the Welch patent.) Maybe they realize that they can commercialize 2786d7f5d3SJohn MarinoLZW better by selling hardware implementations rather than by licensing 2886d7f5d3SJohn Marinosoftware. Again, the LZW software delineated in the patent is *not* 2986d7f5d3SJohn Marinothe same as that of 'compress'. 3086d7f5d3SJohn Marino 3186d7f5d3SJohn MarinoAt any rate, court-tested software patents are a different animal; 3286d7f5d3SJohn Marinocorporate patents in a portfolio are usually traded like baseball cards 3386d7f5d3SJohn Marinoto shut out small fry rather than actually be defended before 3486d7f5d3SJohn Marinonon-technical juries. Perhaps RSA will undergo this test successfully, 3586d7f5d3SJohn Marinoalthough the grant to "exclude others from making, using, or selling" 3686d7f5d3SJohn Marinothe invention would then only apply to the U.S. (witness the 3786d7f5d3SJohn MarinoGenentech patent of the TPA molecule in the U.S. but struck down 3886d7f5d3SJohn Marinoin Great Britain as too broad.) 3986d7f5d3SJohn Marino 4086d7f5d3SJohn MarinoThe concept is still exotic for those who learned in school the rule of thumb 4186d7f5d3SJohn Marinothat one may patent "apparatus" but not an "idea". 4286d7f5d3SJohn MarinoApparently this all changed in Diamond v. Diehr (1981) when the U. S. Supreme 4386d7f5d3SJohn MarinoCourt reversed itself. 4486d7f5d3SJohn Marino 4586d7f5d3SJohn MarinoScholars should consult the excellent article in the Washington and Lee 4686d7f5d3SJohn MarinoLaw Review (fall 1984, vol. 41, no. 4) by Anthony and Colwell for a 4786d7f5d3SJohn Marinocomprehensive survey of an area which will remain murky for some time. 4886d7f5d3SJohn Marino 4986d7f5d3SJohn MarinoUntil the dust clears, how you approach ideas which are patented depends 5086d7f5d3SJohn Marinoon how paranoid you are of a legal onslaught. Arbitrary? Yes. But 5186d7f5d3SJohn Marinothe patent bar the the CCPA (Court of Customs and Patent Appeals) 5286d7f5d3SJohn Marinothanks you for any uncertainty as they, at least, stand to gain 5386d7f5d3SJohn Marinofrom any trouble. 5486d7f5d3SJohn Marino 5586d7f5d3SJohn Marino=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 5686d7f5d3SJohn MarinoFrom: James A. Woods <jaw@eos.arc.nasa.gov> 5786d7f5d3SJohn MarinoSubject: Re: Looking for C source for RSA (actually 'compress' patents) 5886d7f5d3SJohn Marino 5986d7f5d3SJohn Marino In article <2042@eos.UUCP> you write: 6086d7f5d3SJohn Marino >The concept is still exotic for those who learned in school the rule of thumb 6186d7f5d3SJohn Marino >that one may patent "apparatus" but not an "idea". 6286d7f5d3SJohn Marino 6386d7f5d3SJohn MarinoA rule of thumb that has never been completely valid, as any chemical 6486d7f5d3SJohn Marinoengineer can tell you. (Chemical processes were among the earliest patents, 6586d7f5d3SJohn Marinoas I recall.) 6686d7f5d3SJohn Marino 6786d7f5d3SJohn Marino ah yes -- i date myself when relaying out-of-date advice from elderly 6886d7f5d3SJohn Marino attorneys who don't even specialize in patents. one other interesting 6986d7f5d3SJohn Marino class of patents include the output of optical lens design programs, 7086d7f5d3SJohn Marino which yield formulae which can then fairly directly can be molded 7186d7f5d3SJohn Marino into glass. although there are restrictions on patenting equations, 7286d7f5d3SJohn Marino the "embedded systems" seem to fly past the legal gauntlets. 7386d7f5d3SJohn Marino 7486d7f5d3SJohn Marino anyway, i'm still learning about intellectual property law after 7586d7f5d3SJohn Marino several conversations from a unisys (nee sperry) lawyer re 'compress'. 7686d7f5d3SJohn Marino 7786d7f5d3SJohn Marino it's more complicated than this, but they're letting (oral 7886d7f5d3SJohn Marino communication only) software versions of 'compress' slide 7986d7f5d3SJohn Marino as far as licensing fees go. this includes 'arc', 'stuffit', 8086d7f5d3SJohn Marino and other commercial wrappers for 'compress'. yet they are 8186d7f5d3SJohn Marino signing up licensees for hardware chips. hewlett-packard 8286d7f5d3SJohn Marino supposedly has an active vlsi project, and unisys has 8386d7f5d3SJohn Marino board-level lzw-based tape controllers. (to build lzw into 8486d7f5d3SJohn Marino a disk controller would be strange, as you'd have to build 8586d7f5d3SJohn Marino in a filesystem too!) 8686d7f5d3SJohn Marino 8786d7f5d3SJohn Marino it's byzantine 8886d7f5d3SJohn Marino that unisys is in a tiff with hp regarding the patents, 8986d7f5d3SJohn Marino after discovering some sort of "compress" button on some 9086d7f5d3SJohn Marino hp terminal product. why? well, professor abraham lempel jumped 9186d7f5d3SJohn Marino from being department chairman of computer science at technion in 9286d7f5d3SJohn Marino israel to sperry (where he got the first patent), but then to work 9386d7f5d3SJohn Marino at hewlett-packard on sabbatical. the second welch patent 9486d7f5d3SJohn Marino is only weakly derivative of the first, so they want chip 9586d7f5d3SJohn Marino licenses and hp relented. however, everyone agrees something 9686d7f5d3SJohn Marino like the current unix implementation is the way to go with 9786d7f5d3SJohn Marino software, so hp (and ucb) long ago asked spencer thomas and i to sign 9886d7f5d3SJohn Marino off on copyright permission (although they didn't need to, it being pd). 9986d7f5d3SJohn Marino lempel, hp, and unisys grumbles they can't make money off the 10086d7f5d3SJohn Marino software since a good free implementation (not the best -- 10186d7f5d3SJohn Marino i have more ideas!) escaped via usenet. (lempel's own pascal 10286d7f5d3SJohn Marino code was apparently horribly slow.) 10386d7f5d3SJohn Marino i don't follow the ibm 'arc' legal bickering; my impression 10486d7f5d3SJohn Marino is that the pc folks are making money off the archiver/wrapper 10586d7f5d3SJohn Marino look/feel of the thing [if ms-dos can be said to have a look and feel]. 10686d7f5d3SJohn Marino 10786d7f5d3SJohn Marino now where is telebit with the compress firmware? in a limbo 10886d7f5d3SJohn Marino netherworld, probably, with sperry still welcoming outfits 10986d7f5d3SJohn Marino to sign patent licenses, a common tactic to bring other small fry 11086d7f5d3SJohn Marino into the fold. the guy who crammed 12-bit compess into the modem 11186d7f5d3SJohn Marino there left. also what is transpiring with 'compress' and sys 5 rel 4? 11286d7f5d3SJohn Marino beats me, but if sperry got a hold of them on these issues, 11386d7f5d3SJohn Marino at&t would likely re-implement another algorithm if they 11486d7f5d3SJohn Marino thought 'compress' infringes. needful to say, i don't think 11586d7f5d3SJohn Marino it does after the abovementioned legal conversation. 11686d7f5d3SJohn Marino my own beliefs on whether algorithms should be patentable at all 11786d7f5d3SJohn Marino change with the weather. if the courts finally nail down 11886d7f5d3SJohn Marino patent protection for algorithms, academic publication in 11986d7f5d3SJohn Marino textbooks will be somewhat at odds with the engineering world, 12086d7f5d3SJohn Marino where the textbook codes will simply be a big tease to get 12186d7f5d3SJohn Marino money into the patent holder coffers... 12286d7f5d3SJohn Marino 12386d7f5d3SJohn Marino oh, if you implement lzw from the patent, you won't get 12486d7f5d3SJohn Marino good rates because it doesn't mention adaptive table reset, 12586d7f5d3SJohn Marino lack thereof being *the* serious deficiency of thomas' first version. 12686d7f5d3SJohn Marino 12786d7f5d3SJohn Marino now i know that patent law generally protects against independent 12886d7f5d3SJohn Marino re-invention (like the 'xor' hash function pleasantly mentioned 12986d7f5d3SJohn Marino in the patent [but not the paper]). 13086d7f5d3SJohn Marino but the upshot is that if anyone ever wanted to sue us, 13186d7f5d3SJohn Marino we're partially covered with 13286d7f5d3SJohn Marino independently-developed twists, plus the fact that some of us work 13386d7f5d3SJohn Marino in a bureacratic morass (as contractor to a public agency in my case). 13486d7f5d3SJohn Marino 13586d7f5d3SJohn Marino quite a mess, huh? i've wanted to tell someone this stuff 13686d7f5d3SJohn Marino for a long time, for posterity if nothing else. 13786d7f5d3SJohn Marino 13886d7f5d3SJohn Marinojames 13986d7f5d3SJohn Marino 140