1*44245SbosticFrom: James A. Woods <jaw@eos.arc.nasa.gov> 2*44245Sbostic 3*44245Sbostic>From vn Fri Dec 2 18:05:27 1988 4*44245SbosticSubject: Re: Looking for C source for RSA 5*44245SbosticNewsgroups: sci.crypt 6*44245Sbostic 7*44245Sbostic# Illegitimi noncarborundum 8*44245Sbostic 9*44245SbosticPatents are a tar pit. 10*44245Sbostic 11*44245SbosticA good case can be made that most are just a license to sue, and nothing 12*44245Sbosticis illegal until a patent is upheld in court. 13*44245Sbostic 14*44245SbosticFor example, if you receive netnews by means other than 'nntp', 15*44245Sbosticthese very words are being modulated by 'compress', 16*44245Sbostica variation on the patented Lempel-Ziv-Welch algorithm. 17*44245Sbostic 18*44245SbosticOriginal Ziv-Lempel is patent number 4,464,650, and the more powerful 19*44245SbosticLZW method is #4,558,302. Yet despite any similarities between 'compress' 20*44245Sbosticand LZW (the public-domain 'compress' code was designed and given to the 21*44245Sbosticworld before the ink on the Welch patent was dry), no attorneys from Sperry 22*44245Sbostic(the assignee) have asked you to unplug your Usenet connection. 23*44245Sbostic 24*44245SbosticWhy? I can't speak for them, but it is possible the claims are too broad, 25*44245Sbosticor, just as bad, not broad enough. ('compress' does things not mentioned 26*44245Sbosticin the Welch patent.) Maybe they realize that they can commercialize 27*44245SbosticLZW better by selling hardware implementations rather than by licensing 28*44245Sbosticsoftware. Again, the LZW software delineated in the patent is *not* 29*44245Sbosticthe same as that of 'compress'. 30*44245Sbostic 31*44245SbosticAt any rate, court-tested software patents are a different animal; 32*44245Sbosticcorporate patents in a portfolio are usually traded like baseball cards 33*44245Sbosticto shut out small fry rather than actually be defended before 34*44245Sbosticnon-technical juries. Perhaps RSA will undergo this test successfully, 35*44245Sbosticalthough the grant to "exclude others from making, using, or selling" 36*44245Sbosticthe invention would then only apply to the U.S. (witness the 37*44245SbosticGenentech patent of the TPA molecule in the U.S. but struck down 38*44245Sbosticin Great Britain as too broad.) 39*44245Sbostic 40*44245SbosticThe concept is still exotic for those who learned in school the rule of thumb 41*44245Sbosticthat one may patent "apparatus" but not an "idea". 42*44245SbosticApparently this all changed in Diamond v. Diehr (1981) when the U. S. Supreme 43*44245SbosticCourt reversed itself. 44*44245Sbostic 45*44245SbosticScholars should consult the excellent article in the Washington and Lee 46*44245SbosticLaw Review (fall 1984, vol. 41, no. 4) by Anthony and Colwell for a 47*44245Sbosticcomprehensive survey of an area which will remain murky for some time. 48*44245Sbostic 49*44245SbosticUntil the dust clears, how you approach ideas which are patented depends 50*44245Sbosticon how paranoid you are of a legal onslaught. Arbitrary? Yes. But 51*44245Sbosticthe patent bar the the CCPA (Court of Customs and Patent Appeals) 52*44245Sbosticthanks you for any uncertainty as they, at least, stand to gain 53*44245Sbosticfrom any trouble. 54*44245Sbostic 55*44245Sbostic=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= 56*44245SbosticFrom: James A. Woods <jaw@eos.arc.nasa.gov> 57*44245SbosticSubject: Re: Looking for C source for RSA (actually 'compress' patents) 58*44245Sbostic 59*44245Sbostic In article <2042@eos.UUCP> you write: 60*44245Sbostic >The concept is still exotic for those who learned in school the rule of thumb 61*44245Sbostic >that one may patent "apparatus" but not an "idea". 62*44245Sbostic 63*44245SbosticA rule of thumb that has never been completely valid, as any chemical 64*44245Sbosticengineer can tell you. (Chemical processes were among the earliest patents, 65*44245Sbosticas I recall.) 66*44245Sbostic 67*44245Sbostic ah yes -- i date myself when relaying out-of-date advice from elderly 68*44245Sbostic attorneys who don't even specialize in patents. one other interesting 69*44245Sbostic class of patents include the output of optical lens design programs, 70*44245Sbostic which yield formulae which can then fairly directly can be molded 71*44245Sbostic into glass. although there are restrictions on patenting equations, 72*44245Sbostic the "embedded systems" seem to fly past the legal gauntlets. 73*44245Sbostic 74*44245Sbostic anyway, i'm still learning about intellectual property law after 75*44245Sbostic several conversations from a unisys (nee sperry) lawyer re 'compress'. 76*44245Sbostic 77*44245Sbostic it's more complicated than this, but they're letting (oral 78*44245Sbostic communication only) software versions of 'compress' slide 79*44245Sbostic as far as licensing fees go. this includes 'arc', 'stuffit', 80*44245Sbostic and other commercial wrappers for 'compress'. yet they are 81*44245Sbostic signing up licensees for hardware chips. hewlett-packard 82*44245Sbostic supposedly has an active vlsi project, and unisys has 83*44245Sbostic board-level lzw-based tape controllers. (to build lzw into 84*44245Sbostic a disk controller would be strange, as you'd have to build 85*44245Sbostic in a filesystem too!) 86*44245Sbostic 87*44245Sbostic it's byzantine 88*44245Sbostic that unisys is in a tiff with hp regarding the patents, 89*44245Sbostic after discovering some sort of "compress" button on some 90*44245Sbostic hp terminal product. why? well, professor abraham lempel jumped 91*44245Sbostic from being department chairman of computer science at technion in 92*44245Sbostic israel to sperry (where he got the first patent), but then to work 93*44245Sbostic at hewlett-packard on sabbatical. the second welch patent 94*44245Sbostic is only weakly derivative of the first, so they want chip 95*44245Sbostic licenses and hp relented. however, everyone agrees something 96*44245Sbostic like the current unix implementation is the way to go with 97*44245Sbostic software, so hp (and ucb) long ago asked spencer thomas and i to sign 98*44245Sbostic off on copyright permission (although they didn't need to, it being pd). 99*44245Sbostic lempel, hp, and unisys grumbles they can't make money off the 100*44245Sbostic software since a good free implementation (not the best -- 101*44245Sbostic i have more ideas!) escaped via usenet. (lempel's own pascal 102*44245Sbostic code was apparently horribly slow.) 103*44245Sbostic i don't follow the ibm 'arc' legal bickering; my impression 104*44245Sbostic is that the pc folks are making money off the archiver/wrapper 105*44245Sbostic look/feel of the thing [if ms-dos can be said to have a look and feel]. 106*44245Sbostic 107*44245Sbostic now where is telebit with the compress firmware? in a limbo 108*44245Sbostic netherworld, probably, with sperry still welcoming outfits 109*44245Sbostic to sign patent licenses, a common tactic to bring other small fry 110*44245Sbostic into the fold. the guy who crammed 12-bit compess into the modem 111*44245Sbostic there left. also what is transpiring with 'compress' and sys 5 rel 4? 112*44245Sbostic beats me, but if sperry got a hold of them on these issues, 113*44245Sbostic at&t would likely re-implement another algorithm if they 114*44245Sbostic thought 'compress' infringes. needful to say, i don't think 115*44245Sbostic it does after the abovementioned legal conversation. 116*44245Sbostic my own beliefs on whether algorithms should be patentable at all 117*44245Sbostic change with the weather. if the courts finally nail down 118*44245Sbostic patent protection for algorithms, academic publication in 119*44245Sbostic textbooks will be somewhat at odds with the engineering world, 120*44245Sbostic where the textbook codes will simply be a big tease to get 121*44245Sbostic money into the patent holder coffers... 122*44245Sbostic 123*44245Sbostic oh, if you implement lzw from the patent, you won't get 124*44245Sbostic good rates because it doesn't mention adaptive table reset, 125*44245Sbostic lack thereof being *the* serious deficiency of thomas' first version. 126*44245Sbostic 127*44245Sbostic now i know that patent law generally protects against independent 128*44245Sbostic re-invention (like the 'xor' hash function pleasantly mentioned 129*44245Sbostic in the patent [but not the paper]). 130*44245Sbostic but the upshot is that if anyone ever wanted to sue us, 131*44245Sbostic we're partially covered with 132*44245Sbostic independently-developed twists, plus the fact that some of us work 133*44245Sbostic in a bureacratic morass (as contractor to a public agency in my case). 134*44245Sbostic 135*44245Sbostic quite a mess, huh? i've wanted to tell someone this stuff 136*44245Sbostic for a long time, for posterity if nothing else. 137*44245Sbostic 138*44245Sbosticjames 139*44245Sbostic 140